I will note that this post relates much more heavily to people in high level orders than it does for people 1000+ in Order Rank.
Attack vs Defense
There is an ongoing debate over the usefulness of defense for high level players resulting in many players just going with no defense and pushing pure offense. I want to note, this way of thinking is not entirely wrong. The way I see it there are two ways to value attack over defense.
Option 1) Many players remove all their points from defense leaving only 10 left. This is a mistake. The reason being, mobage penalizes people for doing this. Every time a player with 10 defense is attacked during Holy Wars, they are worth the full amount of points. Over the course of 100 attacks, these players give out an additional 5000+ points. I highly doubt the players doing this are bringing in those extra 5000+ points.
Option 2) The proper way to value attack over defense is to leave roughly 100pts in defense and just use your offense cards in defense. For many high level players these will be SR, SSR, or Legend cards so the stats won't be awful, but they won't bring useful buffs. The nice part of using this method is as players attack you, the amount of points you are worth reduces until you use HP. There is also still the chance that somebody attacks you and loses (although not likely). Over the course of the match, these points start to add up rapidly.
It seems obvious...
Yes, it seems obvious that a player shouldn't want to be worth the full points during the entire match but a lot of players still reduce their stats to 10 defense. The logic behind this is often that they would be refreshing with HP anyway so they would be worth the full amount regardless. This is true if they are online for 100% of the fights, but we all know that's not likely. That means during the fights that they are not online, they are easily farmed for points. Although 5000 points won't normally be the win/loss at high levels, if 10 players are offline 50,000 points can be.
In conclusion:
I personally feel that pushing defense if you aren't a defense leader is pointless at high levels since 80-90% of the enemy team will still be able to take you down. But just because they can beat you is no reason to drop your defense to 10 and be worth full points the entire match. That's just ridiculous. So instead, leave 100pts in defense and just use your same attack cards as defenders. This way the points you are worth are still reduced.
At high level play Rage pretty much has a defense leader, and 30+ Glass Cannons.
I'm curious to hear your opinions on the subject.
This is exactly what I said the other day on the deck improvement thread. Even outside HW it is still more valuable to have a good offense and a weak defense. Every time you get attacked-which really isn't that often, you can attack someone else, or even the same person back as a deterrent. My Def is 123, but my off is 470 and rising. I'm not a high level player, but I can tell you now I would be surprised to see a high level player whose not def leader with more that 100 sta 100 def. I just don't see a purpose for it.
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of Defense Leaders; is there ever a reason to have more than one. I suggested my order go to one for the last HW because we have a guy with 120k base and no one else close. I think during the wars he was online he only went down twice. I just don't know why you would put some other lesser player out there to also get whacked.
I honestly have never liked multiple defense leaders. It just gives more options for the team to attack and costs your defense leaders more HP.
DeleteMy personal experience is the majority of high level players still do have usually 150+ def. Whether or not they wish they had less I dunno ;) An increasingly larger number seem to be fielding no defense cards though.
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of defense leads, no, there's no reason whatsoever to have more than one, unless you actually like playing with a handicap and give the other orders a sporting chance :p
Yeah, last HW I noticed a huge increase of people not using cards or running 10pt defenses. Of course the 10pt defense players were farmed to 100, then once all the attack leads were farmed to 100, it reset and and we farmed them again.
DeleteI think this is true for the majority of players... but when there aren't events on, I've been working on trying to move up in daily battle rankings (obtaining titles seems a good way to secure HP and Cp's)and it seems to me that unless you are willing to drop HP daily on your battle ranking the way to obtain a high rank it to rely on your defense.
ReplyDeleteLets say you have a deck that requires 125 AP and you have 500 AP - that's 4 attacks. Let's assume 300 Battle Points per attack. At that rate you'd get 3600 Battle points per day assuming you attack every time you recharge... that will barely get you into the top 5K.
So in order to obtain titles and a high battle ranking you NEED players to attack you quite regularly.
I assume this is done by obtaining a decent battle ranking so that players attacking high ranked players are more likely to draw you randomly and attack.
In terms of HW I totally agree with your strategy... I guess it depends on what your goals are in the late game.
Somewhat related to this I don't understand how the guy got 4.5 mil in the last event. I just can't figure it out. I finished with 500k. I was hitting for 2+mil per attack 6 attacks per hp with the 500% boost in. and that cost me about 75 hp. I means the dude had to spend upwards of 1000 hps to get there. I can see someone having and spending that much HP, but what I can't figure out is how much time that must have taken. I mean just to spend 20 or 30 your talking about the better part of an hour.
ReplyDeleteI also don't understand why you would do that. I mean he spent 20% more than he needed to just to get the #1 spot. Is the number 1 spot worth some unknown reward or am I missing something. He could have been in the top 50 at 2.5 mil. Who knows.
It's a pride thing for certain players.
DeleteAs for the expenses, it's kind of yes and kind of no. Although he may 700ish HP to get that rank, he was also getting rewards from shards, if he managed to get two Devil Queens that takes him down to under 500HP.
Personally, I don't think top rankings are worth it except for pride anymore. The amount of HP events cost isn't level with the prizes anymore.
Using the back button during att makes you much faster since you dont watch the animations. If you have the HP dropping that much damage can be done by anyone.
DeleteI'm curious as to why I seem to never hear any mention of Ragnarok effects when discussing the usefulness of defense decks. I don't know what it's like at the top level of play as I am in a 1000+ ranked order. But, I have switched over to active attack leaders during the later parts of matches to farm for decent points and decent hits to the opposing order's accumulated total (I do have to take a hit to my individual points ranking). Your suggestion of an attack deck as a defense deck would probably even let me lead off with a point booster in my deck.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed that high level players accumulate an insane amount of points, which I believe would increase Ragnarok's effect(?). Might it be a good strategy to have guys switch over to an active attack lead with a weak def after locking the order leader, while several other guys farm a few offline players to unlock the order leader.
Generally speaking, at higher levels we just push to win. The matches are so competitive you just try to win everything for the bonus since your HP's value is so much lower if you lose.
DeleteA lot of players need to pay attention to what various order members are worth because I normally find that five minutes into a fight the order leader is worth significantly less than some random member because he's being farmed. It is beneficial to have people working on different members in regard to maximizing each players individual points.
Perhaps with another HW coming up you could dedicate a post to HW strategy? The information given for HW events in the game about bonuses, ragnarok etc is vague and assumes previous knowledge.
DeleteHow points are calculated, how the bonuses work, various pros and cons to different strategies etc would be worth talking about.
I have a question. I am moving from Def Leader to Atk leader and I was wondering if it would be beneficial to sell my Def deck to make improvements to a decent SR/SSR attack deck? Is there a benefit there?
ReplyDeleteWith the recent changes to same-skill proc reduction, would it make sense to still stack 3 wall breakers and 2 wing card to break walls? If not, what would be the best setup? Thanks in advance.
ReplyDeleteWall breakers and event cards aren't effected by the changes.
DeleteWith the Holy War coming up I've been thinking of making some changes. I'm fairly new to the game and still building my decks but I currently have:
ReplyDeleteATK:
Claymore Maid Skill 5
Claymore Maid (in progress)
Luminous Knight Skill 5
Master Samurai Skill 5
-filler card (ends up being lancelot, still saving up for this card-
DEF:
Lancelot Skill 7
Paladin Skill 5
Captain Skill 6
Captain Skill 6
Captain Skill 4
I feel my defense is pretty solid at this point, but given that I'm new to the game is the lancelot overkill? Is it best to just keep slowly accruing HP and finish my ATK deck, or should I trade out the lancelot for a paladin (I have another already) and build it up now?
My thought was I could easily get 2 strong ATK cards (claymaid, yuki, etc) for what I can sell the lance for.
I wouldn't sell off your defense. I would just keep it where it is and work on your offense. You shouldn't have to touch your defense for a while as is.
DeleteThanks for the advice!
DeleteHey Lucarda! Talking about stats, I've been realizing some of these same things. I'm now trying to lower my stats. I have 300 stam. I want to drop some of those and put more into my atk to stretch my HP's a little farther. I've tried to ask people to drop me, but I cant ever seem to get down as far as I want. Am I doomed to starting another account to be serious on?
ReplyDeleteyou can just drop players slowly yourself if they refuse to drop you
DeleteThis past hw we found that the order leader and attack leaders where worth the same amount of points regardless of the fact that we were farming them to lockout 5 and repeat. There was no difference in points regardless of how many times they were hit. Having a decent defense is only helpful if your active during a war. Otherwise you will be spammed until you only have 1 card. Again. There is no change in hw points regardless of how much a defender is being attacked.
ReplyDeleteHey man, I need to ask for some guidance, since I'm lost right now.
ReplyDeleteI want to update my att deck, and I have the following:
Leader Nightmare sk10;
2nd Demonic Knight sk6;
3rd Mad Hatter sk5;
wings 2 Trow Elfs;
My base att is around 89k, but I know I could improve this replacing Nightmare with something with more att, but since this is sk lvl 10, I found my self stucked. Should I improve this deck, or aim for my def, that is around 85k (wraith sk 6; marsyas sk 5, bloody missterss sk 4, Birdman Garuda, and Chimaera)?
If I'm going to improve, probabily I will need to start to reach SSR's, so what card you recommend me to change first, and what card should I get? I have around 450 hp to invest right now...
I'm a def leader with a strong attack and def deck, level 110 and have 3 attacks per HP and can take 8-9 hits before using backup deck 378atk/240def. Yeah i may suffer a little during stamina events but they give you two weeks to fully complete them anyway i dont see a point of having more than 180pts stamina. anyway, having great attack (150K) and excellent defense prevents other people from farming your points away by attacking you. IN a close match my order won by one battle, taking pts away from them and gaining a couple hundred myself, literally a difference of less than 100 pts. they wasted HP trying to break my def and farm my points instead of going for others in order. Oh, and when i reach top 700 i get attacked ALL THE TIME, 3-4 times an hour and win 95% of matches there. That almost always puts me close to top 1000 again the next day including my attacks.
ReplyDelete