By now most people know that defense leaders are pretty much useless against the power of chains and shingeki. Obviously you should try to gain points in every battle for medals. You should coordinate for maybe one mammoth war a day rather than burn your members out on constant wars.
There just is really only so much I can say about Holy Wars. They have blatantly become who can spend the most HP. And before people say they always have been...they didn't always feel like that.
They felt more like you had to pick the right player to attack (because some you could beat and some you couldn't). They felt like having everybody use the same card confused the enemy. It felt like defense/attack leaders served a purpose.
I can tell you right now there are orders out there considering doing away with def/atk leaders because they only serve to offer a point bonus.
Overall, I just don't really have a lot to say about current HW, so I'm sorry.
So, instead, I'll post how I would fix HW in Rage of Bahamut:
The idea of players having a sort of super saiyan mode (shingeki) is good. But I think that it should be accounted for each player and possibly tied to realm. Demons would get Attack Power Bonus, Gods could get a Defense Power Bonus, and Man could get a mixed bonus. When activated the player has five minutes of it. Move the ability from 'leader hits button, we zerg' to more of a 'player won 20 times, they got their limit break' type feel. The player would get a 50% bonus to HW points while in their 'Limit Break' mode. The potency of the ability could be increased every time you activated it. This moves away from those group buffs.Return Defense leaders to their previous position. They are defenders and should act as such. Or if you want other players to remain attackable. Give all players a 50% boost to defense while a defense leader is active. This will make people think again about who they attack and bring some glory back to the defense leader.
Increase wall health. Lets be honest, walls are too easy and meaningless in their current form. If that had about 5-6x the health though, they would serve more of a purpose and breaking them down would seem more of an accomplishment.
Remove the ability to burn tons of HP in a single attack. It makes it fell like war is about spending HP and it should feel about which team is better built. I understand that HP should be apart of it, but the main reasons HW don't seem worth the trouble is because of the heavy HP expenditures.
Finally, stop trying to design an event on how you can make more money. You may make more money from some players, but you lose players. And although you may not value those players who don't spend money, if one of your paying players is friends with them, you're likely to lose them.
Lets simplify that thought that for you:
Payer - Non Payer - Non Payer - Payer - Non Payer - Non Payer - Non Payer - Non Payer
So, non payers 2, 3, and four leave. They find a new non Rage/Mobage game. They are still good friends in LINE with the two Payers and say 'hey, we're having a blast with this new game'. Payer tries it and says, damn, screw mobage, I'm playing this.
That's my post/rant for this week.
Nice post. I'll make a different suggestion. Make it so Def points do not decrease for non-Def Leaders. That way, no one other than the Def leader can be farmed. You want the 20% bonus for beating the order leader? Beat his Def deck.
ReplyDeleteRight now, only Event cards are money makers for Cygames. If Atk and Def cards have more meaning, their values will increase. That would be better for everybody.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNot true about def lead. Our def leader won us several battles. When u phalanx during bh and i as support lead throw in shield, only 270k attack can break through and thus making attack leader + warcry + shingeki important. Although our order does not have the most hp, we won several wars by strategizing. Either, last 10 min drill with shin or swift outburst in the beginning and then keeping bh and phalanx + shield to stop enemy from catching up. Ofc hp will always be most important, so is the strategy. Every order we fought and they thought leaders only give points so we dont need def and or att leader lost to us. Because they could not break chain, our def or lock us out.
ReplyDeleteMy order farms a million points during the first shingeki. It's tough to compare. Nobody I've seen at high levels have enough of a phalanx to block an attack leader.
DeleteLimit Break -> Possible Cardfight Vanguard reference? :D
ReplyDeleteLimit Break -> Final Fantasy
DeleteI want to smack you. I don't even know what cardfight vanguard is. The fact that you would disrespect final fantasy by even mentioning another game before it in reference to limit break makes me sorry for young gamers.
Delete"Give all players a 50% boost to defense while a defense leader is active."
ReplyDeleteI *LOVE* this idea!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe blogger stuff annoys me at time.
ReplyDeleteThis is my 2nd holy war.
I didn't even know I had charge or war cry last time.
This time around as a support leader I feel useful, the boost is significant for us as most players are the 1-3k contributers (I aim for 1k as that is where my rewards are going to come from) As long as no one goes afk it will give 900-1200 points. (If an order properly fed the support leaders it could be pretty sick)
For me events are about optimizing return on investment until I can make a break out towards a 'real guild' where you need those heavy hp requirements and plowing powder into your opponents pays off with high end cards.
There is a huge difference between the haves and the have not's in this game and it really feels like that difference is powder. You have to spend powder to make powder in these events.
For us new players we can't blow the 100 powder without a guaranteed return, and that just isn't there without a guild. However if you can reach 100% uptime (which i have despite the terrible times) you get a 'decent' amount back.
I would like to point out that you need a certain amount of 'deck' to be able to beat people but having tricked out cards matters very little.
DeleteYou need to be able to beat someones defense (that has been beaten down by your orders relentless attacks)
You need a holy war point boosting card as your center (notice how they made a great boost for this holy war, I'm not sure if they do that every time) The rest of your points are determined by the closeness of that persons level to you, the chain, shingeki, your attack power, if they have a wall, and your hp.
All it boils down to for players trying to get into the scene seems to boil down to get 400-500 attack, get 80+ deck, save up 100-200 powder and start applying to active guilds.
Exactly. I sold off my high level cards and am currently using an SR deck. I have yet to come across people I can't beat with shingeki and chain outside of the defense leader occasionally.
DeleteSo, all those people with full legend attack decks I think...why?
Is that base SR or evolved SR?
DeleteVast, you seem to be a little confused. You discuss making powder from HW and guaranteed returns... Just so you're up to speed, Mobage doesn't give anybody returns that are worthy of HP spent so you can kiss that goodbye. Only chance you got is to get into a big order and ride those coattails to the rewards! You'll get booted of course, but you'll have your "return". Yeah MOBAGE!!! The x3 HP Full Force attack button should just be a shopping cart with $$$ in it and have the heading, "Pay Mobage to WIN!"
DeleteI agree with everything said in this post. ROB is literally trying to ROB everyone of their money, time and fun. I wish they would read this post at least once and know that there are many people unhappy with this new scheme.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I noticed the holy war leaders all have millions of points? These guys cheating? or they are born billionaires? I'm not paying 5 bucks for 10 hp.
No, they're not cheating. Many in my order will have over a million points. I accumulated 160k in one shingeki without trying.
DeleteAlso, some orders use a lockout strategy where they send HP to the order leader to carry them through wars. If you don't know about the lockout strategy it's in one of my HW strategies posts.
Or most here I'm sure are capable of explaining it. I just don't feel like writing it out again.
DeleteNo cheating mate. I just spent every damn hp i had... 2.3 million hw points here. ^^ hope ill stay in top 300 individual at least.
DeleteHow much hp on average per battle do you spend? and how do you obtain so much without breaking the bank?
DeleteWell we didnt go every war the same. It really depends on who u fight and how they fight and base on that u develop a strategy. Most what i have used was about 600 in a battle and least was none. Lucky pulls, buying cardpacks as well as special hp sales on RoB that usually have limited number of how much u can buy. Also pulled spartacus last event and ranked high enough to get 2 goblin kings thats another 250hp.
DeleteAs to how to acquire that much hw points. Attack with full force attacks 3 hp only during shingeki and 50% chain. That gives me 5100 minimum hw points. Sometimes over 6 when farming order leader or high level vice, att, supp leaders.
Pretty much that. I get about 5500+ for attacking anybody with full force and buffs. Chaining full force with shingeki+chain as well as just blowing tons of HP is how you do it.
DeleteWell... at least RoB's eventsand economy has gotten as bad as Fantasica's... Seems like Mobage/DenA is really becoming more and more infamous.
ReplyDeleteIt's poor game management. Or it's their design but I don't know why anybody would design their games like that. Gain traffic, abusively monetize, lose customers but make money. Repeat. I'd rather not waste the money reinvesting in resources and do, Gain tons of traffic, casually monetize, don't lose customers but make money slower.
DeleteI agree with you completely. The sad truth is though is that most of their games are still in the top grossing apps in the android market. (RoB, Fantasica, BB, Marvel, etc.).
DeleteAs long as the camel's back hasn't broken and people still keep spending on their games, nothing will change.
I think it's also a bit interesting though that the newer games that I've seen released from mobage and their associates, such as Hellfire and D.O.T., no longer have trading and a non-premium currency (e.g. rupies). Seems they're more hellbent in regulating in-game economy in order ot maximize profit, while using a power creeping model in order to draw spenders in.
tl;dr, they're greedy bastards.
Could you point me to where you explained lockout strategy before? I must have missed that before. Thanks! (I looked for a while and couldn't find it, I did try)
ReplyDeleteGah. I don't want to search for it. The way HW points are calculated are partially based on the remaining defense points for a player. So if a player has been farmed down he is worth less and less until he uses an HP.
DeleteLockout involves a single enemy player being the only active one in a battle. This way an opposing guild will attack him 100x and he can't be farmed anymore. After this their only option is to attack the other players who will progressively be worth less.
This way the attacking player will be getting full point values constantly from the enemy order recharging HP, they will be gaining lowered point values for the characters they attack since they are farming the same ones over and over again and they are not recharging HP.
If the player can keep it close (which isn't super hard) the order members can come on during the last five minutes and burst into the lead.
This is a rough explanation of the lockout strategy. Rage fixed it a little by making players worth a little more at their lowest, but it's still fairly effective.
Ok. Thanks.
DeleteIs it still effective? I noticed that Full Force Attacks use HP, but without replenishing your DEF power. I would assume that these players would be still worth progressively less if they're sticking to FF attacks only.
DeleteA quick search indicates it might be related to:
ReplyDelete"1) Changes to Holy War Points Received - High minimum points from lower level players, higher minimum points when attacking users with lower DEF PWR.
This change is directly used to combat the lockout strategy since even at lowest DEF PWR they will pay more points. The strategy itself will still be viable since the increase will probably be slight."
I'm not sure how honor and hw points 'really' work and would love to see some hard core theory crafter websites but so far haven't really seen any running around.
From what I can gather from google when you attack someone for honor (not hw points) the amount you get depends on the % of defense who your attacking has left and the % of attack you have left.
I have not noticed this with hw points even when we beat someone down to 10 I seem to get the sameish points. (actually more with chain)
You do lockout of being able to attack someone after 100 times so it might be something where the leader has all the points, gets attacked 100 times and then you can no longer crit, or devestate those points away until you bring 4 other people (with 0 points) a 100 times?
Seems like more trouble then it's worth UNLESS your fighting another order that is a higher rank then you and your trying to limit the amount of points that they can achieve. Haven't really fought at that level so unsure, seems like you just don't bother and farm the next order hard.
Ok, I did pay more attention and it seems that I did get less hw points when the defense used went down (first 2 attacks, same points, third attack a little less and they were using lower level cards )
DeleteRecent updates have punished this strategy, but when done certain ways it can still work. Personally, I've always hated the strategy. It's not fun for anybody but the one player playing.
DeleteHow is anyone making powder on hw's?
ReplyDeleteLooking at the top order assuming 1833 hw points per hp spent and if they had 100,000 points per member (base without spending powder) it would take 6,299 powder per person.
I can only assume they are rolling with around 1000 attack feeding their 5 best players and spending 3000 powder per person....
This still means they need to liquidate there zeus for 3000 plus powder...
the only way I see to make powder is to not participate at the high end and just go for wins and participation points (with several wars at 1 am....)
Lets take it a step out
ReplyDelete151-300
159 powder per person (assuming 38 people in guild and 500 attack)
301-600
66 powder per person same assumptions as 151-300
problem is the rewards for 141-300
2 x dq = 32 powder
2 x cait sith = 46 powder
1 x hr = 2 powder (your personal experience may be higher)
they get 80 powder in rewards or 20 powder profit.
You would have to RIDE the line right between the 301-600 and the 151-300 to eek out 20 hp of profit
It is much safer to let the hw's die down. People will not continue spending this amount of powder when they can't make it back.
You assume that they're trying to sell their cards the moment they get their rewards; which is a fair assumption but a poor choice. Everyone is trying to sell their cards today. Two tiers of players got Cait Sith's and Devil queens, meaning that they've flooded the market and caused a pretty significant price decrease.
DeleteBut if you hold on to them for a while, let the selling frenzy pass, it should be possible to get 100 hp from 301-600 tier the rewards. I'm sure Cait Sith will go up to 30, and devil queens will return to 20 once the supply runs low.
The 151 - 300 tier players I believe are going to get screwed though. Wight King used to sell for 90 because there was a very small supply and even smaller choice of demon defense options at the SSR level. Now they sell for 45. I'm not sure what they got from the SR card pack, but in my experience Mobage tries pretty hard to screw you on those. So they probably got something worth around 20 or 30. That's only 91 hp in rewards. Even if Wight King goes back up to 95 (which I doubt it will considering its the demon equivalent to a Fairy dragon) there's no conceivable way to make back that 159 investment unless they get incredibly lucky with that card pack.
I can think of a few more things that I believe would improve Holy Wars.
ReplyDelete- Give Holy War points for successful defenses. Players might think twice about who they attack and maybe think about actually having a defense deck.
- Braveheart should increase only the DEF of the order by the same magnitude that Shingeki raises ATK. That would make it a real counter.
- Eliminate the bonus to ATK from the chain. There's no corresponding boost to DEF.
- Base the amount of Holy War points player A is worth to player B by how many times player B has hit Player A. Eventually it should go down so far, that player A is worthless to Player B. Reset it only when Player A actively attacks someone else. (I can imagine this is difficult to implement)
- Base the point reductions of Ragnarok/Critical Hits/Devastating Blows on the amount holy war points the losing defender has accumulated. If it's significant enough, that will really make players think about defense.
- Most importantly, get rid of Full Force attacks. No point lead is too great in this game anymore. Or, perhaps only activate it when the order/player reaches a specific threshold. Like, if the player scores 100,000 points in battle, then they can access Full Force x1 attacks.
I can imagine this would only encourage all orders to turtle and spent as least resources possible. This would never happen. If mogabe gets 100 coin for every hp u buy and use why would they want u to be able to spent only 1 hp per click rather than 3 hp?
Delete