Monday, November 12, 2012

Skilling Up Part 3

I was going to update my previous posts on skilling up cards, but after going through charts I really realized that the amount of math I was going to have to do was just too much. Also with the cost variables of certain cards not only as a base, but at certain skill levels vs skilling them youself.

Because of this I'm going to just add another area here about the times when using skilled cards seems to be more valuable.

Personally after figuring in everything, using skilled cards is not something I would do before SSR/Legend quality cards at high skill levels for a couple reasons.

1) Skilled cards cost more to skill up yourself before using. For example, Jean-Baptiste uses the example below of a Rare feeder giving 3.5% chance to skill up an SSR from level 5 to level 6. A rare feeder with a skill of 5 gives 9.6% chance. This means using 10 skill 5 rare feeders will net an almost sure skill up. Unfortunately each rare would cost about 4HP to level to skill 5. Meaning each skill five feeder has a rough cost of 4HP x 10 of them = 40HP to move from 5-6. Using level 1 Rares has an estimated cost of 20-24HP after multiple attempts.

2) Assuming you can purchase the necessary skilled cards for smaller amounts of HP, they still require a long time to accumulate with Bazaar tickets. HR will take five days to accumulate 10 forgoing all other trading.

3) The math is just wonky and I don't wanna do it. 

Now, when I WOULD use higher skilled feeders.

Levels 7, 8, and 9 of SR. SSR, Legend I would consider it. The low percentage chance from the high cost per attempt makes sense to use higher skilled feeders.

Remember that each attempt is its own unique attempt so since the chances technically aren't better each time you fail, making purchasing skilled R/HR in those situations very appealing.

Finally, thanks to all the people who let me know skilling cards before using them to enhance a skill is a viable method. Thanks to Jean-Baptiste for the link HERE that shows a chart of all the % and skill ups.

45 comments:

  1. Hey Lucarda, I was hoping to get your opinion. It has nothing to do with skill building (which I have to say thanks for doing because it just helped me immensely.)

    I just pulled that new SR Card Haniel (Great Boost to GODS Attack). She is currently going for about 215hp on the Bazaar. I am pro GODS and my base attack & def decks are at about 73k each. I have about 200 HP but with HW's coming up I dont want to drop any HP into the Bazaar at this point.

    So do I keep her or sell her??

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    1. Hm. She's only 215? I thought she was going for a lot more than that, at least she was this morning. I think 200HP should be an acceptable amount to have for HW.

      Honestly, if you won't be able to finish her for a while I'd say sell her now. With massive market fluctuations lately I find having my HP in liquid form is much nicer than tied up in a card.

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  2. I'd just try Ur luck with skill 1 rares it would piss me off if I skilled 10 rares to 5 and have it fail lol on a different topic is there a reason ifrits have plummeted all the way down to 13 HP I bought one thinking I was gonna make 5 HP but now I'm screwed lol

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    1. Ifrit dropped down because sword valk came out I believe. Only 1 Ifrit is necessary in a deck now (although 3 with strong wings still works great).

      13 is too low imho though. He's a God realm nightmare.

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    2. So at this point what do you think is the best way to build a Gods attack deck? I was weighing 1 Ifrit and 4 Sword Valks vs. 3 Ifrits and 2 Sephirots. It seems like the latter comes out better overall, but I don't know if there are more options I'm not thinking of.

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  3. Same reason we are selling rares on bazaar for only 1cw each. ROB economy is in the dumps. There is an incredible abundance of rare & high rare cards and ROB continues to release new cards to replace the olds. Check out the cost of Sword Valk compared to Ifrit. Its just ridiculous. We thought maybe the hungry fairy would make a change but she didn't change anything.

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    1. The main reason I posted on a different post but I'll say it again here.

      It used to be when a card dropped in price really far, people would buy 10 of them and relist at 3-5HP increase. This prevented them from dropping too low.

      Now since people can't buy out and relist because the bazaars stupid ticket system, there is only a perpetual downward spiral. If tickets were gone right now, you'd see people buying tons of cards below market value and relisting for 5-10HP more.

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    2. There are some limited exceptions to this. I don't know if you can see this trend with other cards, but Fox Spirit was a limited BB card that is actually really useful. Slightly better than Fairy Princess if I remember correctly.

      Because the demand for this card is actually greater than the number available and the card is no longer coming into the market, it is one of the few cards that is steadily increasing in price/value.

      A little over a week ago it was selling for 100HP, now it is going for 140ish. There are some cards that tend to be a good investment, but even then it is a very slow buy/sell process because of tickets.

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    3. That's true but that existed as well without bazaar. The increase occurred more rapidly with unlimited trading before though.

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  4. So, what do you suggest we do to survive in this harsh situation? I personally think that selling all the cards I have and return back to this game like a month later. I bet the prices are so low that I can easily get back the cards I have sold and earn max profit.

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    1. Lol. That is a decent theory. The best way to make the most of this is by maximizing frozen assets. Anticipating which cards will drop in value fastest and trading them for cards that don't drop quickly is one of the keys. Also, recognizing things like I saw berserkers last week going for 5HP each indivudally but the final form was still going for 50HP. (some of the maxed 1st form were going for only 7HP).

      The key with working in the current market is recognizing the relation of final forms vs the base card. There is a lot of HP to be made with that IF, you have a decent amount of HP to spend.

      Another example is I can't remember which one, but I saw an SS Rare thats base forms were going for 600 each but the final form was going for 3000 for two days before it dropped. Getting ahead of the drop is important.

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    2. So i should sell all my ff nms now?

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    3. You can't anticipate what will happen. I vote for diversification.

      If you really plan on leaving for a month I'd see no issue in liquidating cards you've identified will drop in value (NM actually isn't a bad prediction with Dragonewt out). I can't picture you needing to pay more to pick it up than what you sold it for so I can't anticipate it being a loss.

      But try not to liquidate everything because if all of a sudden cards regain value somehow you don't want to be screwed. Safety nets.


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  5. Yeah, they really need to do away with tickets for buying. That and stop releasing so many cards as reqwards. Instead of god who's how many HR and LCP packs for this event, just give out tons of HP or CW. Mobage/Cygames don't have a handle on the economy now and frankly watching your 4-6 or 6-10 cards go down in value everyday is very demoralizing. People spend a ton of effort/time (not just money) getting these cards and to have them go down in "price" in some cases 50% in a week is a real downer. I don't think they quite get that point.

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    1. Agree, in just 1 week(since the previous previous weekend to the last weekend), most of the cards I observed like Apsara and Nightmare drop like 5hp. Thats not all, Nightmare price actually drop another 5hp in just a day(From Sunday to Monday) just to compete with the selling in bazaar. It hurts a lot seeing how Nightmare loses its value so damn fast.

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    2. It's all psychological. Watch the southpark episode on the economy, it actually mirrors this almost identically.

      Nightmare is actually losing value because of Dragonewt Princess. NM held its value for so long because it was really the only viable HR card for top three spots of offense.

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    3. I understand the NM vs DP issue, but the larger issue is that these login campaigns have released a huge amount of rare and up cards into the marketplace without the corresponding increase in HP/CW. By definition if you're only releasing 1 HP per card the resulting effect is depressing the HP value of all cards since more than just rares are getting pulled. That's great for beginners not so great for established players.


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    4. Well we don't have a free market to balance itself. It's impossible to balance because I can't freely purchase every Rare on the market for 1 CW each and relist them all for 1HP for weak Rares and 2HP for good Rares.

      You could release all the LCP you want but if people could limitlessly buy/sell, the market would regulate itself. Hell, people being able to purchase them alone as feeders would remove a lot of rares from the market.

      I know several people who in the past complained that it was taking weeks to skill up their cards because they can only purchase 5 Rares a day. Those guys would have cleaned out the market of every low priced rare.

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    5. I think that mobage needs to stop giving card packs as rewards, switch to hp instead and buy cards off the bazaar so they are taken out of circulation. This way they are introducing large amounts of HP in to the market while reducing the cards on the market hopefully to drop prices. Now they have heaps of HP with fewer cards then start the next holy war. The excess of HP is consumed by players during the holy war, but the rewards for the war remain the same so now there are less cards on the market and HP amounts return to normal which should raise the price of cards again.

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    6. Hahaha look what I started lol. The sad thing is mobage/cygames dosent give a Shyt about the game economy hell there proboly loving the fact that HP values have gone down the crapper. But as lucarda pointed out the problem is the tickets. What I would like to kno is how the tickets stop hackers since from what I kno is the reason the tickts and bazzar was implemented in the 1st place

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  6. Not sure the correct place to post such a thing, but I got really lucky and pulled a Sword Valkyrie today from a Friendship Card Pack. My deck is not really close to supporting such a card so following my already posted intentions I am going to attempt trading that card up. It has been alluded to that the best way to do this is to trade among the various races or trade an offensive card for a more valuable defensive card. For instance I currently have my SV listed on Bazaar for a Clay Maiden. The point being to add about 5-6 HP in value while at the same time giving me a desirable card that I can likely trade up again for say an Apsara, then from Apsara to say Ares or maybe even FP.

    Unfortunately its very difficult, as has been described int he comments of this post, to keep a steady evaluation of card values in the game and what they have been doing. I have started tracking what I call stepping stone cards, to see where the value is going, but when it changes in a day or even 2 days who has time to keep track of that.

    Personally it makes sense that SV is driving down the price of Ifrit. Assuming all 4-6 cards, and 5 Ifrit vs 5 SV decks and no skill ups, the SV deck beats the Ifrit deck by between 16K (1 Proc) and 14K (3 Procs). As a note the 5 card 4-6 SV Deck hits for 123.5K with 3 Procs+Order+Realm. You could get that done for 700 HP right now.

    It is my estimation at this point that a deck like that puts you as a serviceable upper level player. In NFL terms your an Alex Smith. Your good enough to be a pro, but your not Tom Brady. Brady being the 5 Card 4-6 Enkidu Deck that with Three Procs put you at 210K. Not including the additional boost from obviously being someones attack leader. That's Tom Brady. There's only a few people in the world who can do that (Approximately 15.2K HP).

    As for me I'm just a guy trying to get a Clay Maiden. I'm on the outside looking in. Anyways just some food for thought.

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    1. Forgot to mention this, but the Enkidu deck I mentioned I think you could sell it for around $4,500 US Dollars. How crazy is that!

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  7. Hi, Lucarda. Thank you for your posts, they've been very helpful for me.
    I want to ask your opinion about HW. Actually, right now I have one WC to boost the HWP. There are some questions I'd like to ask you:

    1. Is the boost really worth it? How huge is it?
    2. Currently I have my WC skill level at 5. What do you think is the reasonable skill level for WC? Is level 7 is enough or should I go all the way to 10?
    3. Is one WC enough? Or is it worth to make another WC to boost HWP?

    Thanks :D

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    1. I don't recommend a five card sword valk deck. I've ranked number one in battle rankings and top 30 individual in hw. In my opinion three boosts and two high base wings are the best option for attack and defense. The excepting being five card enkidu and qilin type decks. I crunched the numbers and three skill 1 4-6 ifrits out hit the same deck using three sword valks that cost what more than double? I used gilg and hermes as wings for that experiment. A 4-6 skill 4 gilg was on market for 190hp which I imagine is cheaper than a 4-6 skill 4 sword. My alignment is skill 10 ifrit, enkidu, haniel, Odin and Heracles. Defense qilin, two skill 10 asp, raph and wind god. I believe I do know what I'm doing at least a bit lol short of the five enkidu decks, many of which are possibly hackers or people whose order supplies them cards, I'd say I qualify as a top player and using the alignment I suggested, skilling them up to just level 5 and achieving attack lead you'll be hitting for 143k. Get the ifrits to 10 you'll be right around 160k without morale. Good luck

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    2. I'm not advocating a 5 card SV Deck, merely using it as an example of why the Ifrit price has dropped due to adding a slightly better card to the game. My Sv for CM trade isn't working out so tomorrow when I get some more of those damn tickets I'll pull it down and try for 2 Ifrits. As a side note I'm trying to figure the Ifrit+ stats for a 2-3 card.

      Again, I'm still new to this whole thing so it's difficult to balance investing and making a profit with maintaining a competitive deck as I can now be attacked by a much older player lvl 80 that's had months to wait for investment returns + the pre-Bazaar advantage of unlimited trading. I've been playing for a month with no feeders and I'm mid lvl 70s player with 55K base. Realistically I would like to be in the 65K + base range by the time HWs starts in an estimated 3 weeks.

      It seems possible with 2, 6-2 Agni a 6-2 Reshef a 4-6 Ifrit and my stupid 5-5 High Priestess that I made the first week. The question is do I just forgo the benefits of having a decent deck now and focus on being patient in the hope of achieving better long term results. Would the cost in rewards in the short term be less than the return from developing better cards over time. Keep in mind that I anticipate (I could be wrong) that it will take around 6 months or more of consistent effort to get a deck(s) similar to what you have. I think a 100K deck is a tremendous effort. I'm in a top 2000 order and I think we might have 1 guy that can claim that. I've yet to experience HW for myself, but I can imagine that my puny little 60K with boosts deck is going to do much. Hell I'm struggling now to make it to the Saccharine Witch Treasure completion Reward.

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    3. Matt, don't get discouraged by your deck power. I've always found people don't level their defense decks before their offense decks so most of your equal level opponents will have similar issues. The reason you may have issues with treasures in this event is because the system does a piss poor job getting you opponents. Most of my opponents are pulled from top 500 ranked people even though there are plenty of people with 70k defense decks in my level range.

      I always advise to not let your HP reserves drop too low because it's harder to gain HP if you don't have any.

      You should always have 50-100HP in reserve for the sole purpose of building more HP.

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  8. Lucarda,

    Well I took your advice and made a move to get the 2 Cait Siths in this event but it turns out I got low enough to get a 1 Muse.

    So here is my question, what do you think I should do when it comes out?
    1) Try and sell if for HP right away

    2) Trade it for a Medusa or a card of similar value

    I guess the only reason I would go with option 2 (which is a risk) is that with 900 Muses being released to the market and people trying to sell them right away (undercutting each other along the way) the price could be 400 when I put it on the market and drop to 300 by the end of the day and mine would never sell.

    Let me know what you think, thanks.

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    1. Am I wrong or is 2 Cat Siths going to be worth more HP than 1 Muse?

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    2. Sell it for HP the day it releases would be my recommendation.

      If you don't have the HP to make a 4Max then the HP is better served generating additional HP.

      Think of HP like money, you can A) Buy fancy thing. B) Use the money to invest, generating more money.

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  9. OK, I will sell it right away then, I forgot to add in my post, the reason for trading it for a card of similar value is that the price has kind of leveled out for the card I would trade for and wouldnt fluctuate as much but I think you are right to have HP to make other future deals.

    Matt, from what I have read online, the going rate for the Cait Siths will be anywhere from 80-150 and the Muses 350-450, so either way the 1 Muse will be worth more...well I hope, lol.

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  10. That's my mistake I can see Cat sith being in the Griffon Rider Range + a little because God cards are more, and Muse being around Medusa or more because they will be easier to Skill Up. So yeah Muse is about a 150 HP better than 2 Cat Siths.

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  11. I would say Cait Sith as 130 HP each. That is because fox spirit is around that range, and it has a few hundred more attack than it. Muse would probably go for 250-300. It's funny in the last event that Hekate was selling for 350 while wind god was 230, lol

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  12. umm lucarda i just wanna ask if i can skill up a card after they're fully enhanced without using devil queens. quite interested in valk hilds but they're all at sk 1 but full enhanced

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    1. Yep. Any card with skills will show up as an option to be used as an enhancer if the card you're looking to enhance is already max level.

      This post is a part 3, look at parts 1 and 2 for rarity. Part 3 really covers my thoughts on using cards that are skilled up in the enhancing process.

      Don't go valk hild. Although it's 2% bigger boost than Ifrit, it's a hell of a lot harder to level the skill on. Go for higher skilled Ifrits instead.

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    2. yeah but i just saw some ff hilds going for 24 hps and since i dun hv much hp i tend to use them first. would change to ifrit if possible

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    3. thx for ur advice anyway its this blog that i am really following to build a stronger deck using minimal hp

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    4. Makes sense. If you're strapped for cash Hild is a pretty solid option.

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  13. Hi,
    I have also something nothing to do with skilling...

    What is the effect of building more walls? My order right now has already 50.000 walls but we have still a large ammount of rupies. What will be the effect right now building more walls??

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    1. BUILD ALL THE WALLS!

      Seriously though, having a lot of walls helps during HW so that when one goes down another one will pop up during the next match. You can never have too many because there really is nothing else to spend rupies on.

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  14. Lucarda any idea on crystal castle event? what will it be like?

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    1. Just made a post on it, but it should be a duplicate roar of the dragon/Puppet master.

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  15. I am having a bit of trouble here. I snaked a great deal on the bazaar yesterday (6-2 Sword Valk, skill 4 for 110 HP!!) Guy must have been hard up for HP.

    Anyway, that puts my deck like this:
    1: Trow Elf (6-max skill 10)
    2/3: Sword Valk (6-2 and 5-max, skills 4 and 5)
    4/5: 6-2 Ancient Fairy (18.2 K ATK)

    People I talk to say eventually I'll need to swap out Trow Elf... but I am not sure why... not only am i in love with mine because it has a skill level 10... but the boost it provides is on par with Ifrit, but my elf has 4K higher base!

    With SV in my 2/3 slots their boost applies to trow, so am I missing something here? Is it actually better to let 3 Ifrits take over 1-3? If so, I can make that happen and gain 200HP in the process!!! (Current market level anyway)

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    1. If it weren't for the sword valks you'd want to get rid of trow. And sword valks only bring a base buff of 8%.

      If you were using 3 Ifrit in place of your top 3 you'd have a base of 81k. You'd hit about 111k at skill 1s on each of them, 101 if only 2 proc. If all are skill 10 and three proc its 135k.

      Using your current deck you have a base of about 90k if I can recall sword valk numbers. You'd hit for about 114k at skill 1s on each of them, 107 if two proc. If all are skill 10 and three proc its 138k

      You'll notice those numbers are really close in all counts. With better wings the Ifrit actually wins. The reason they want you to get rid of trow is because it's not effected by its own buff, and it's not effected by other buffs to god realm. Eventually you'll want to stack buffs to god realm since they are 5% stronger than buffs to all.

      Before Valk by the way Trow performed worse than Ifrit in all situations.

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  16. Lucarda, I saw ppl offering a skill up lvl today. SSR skill 8>9 was charged at $28.80 and SSR skill 9>10 was charged at $33.60. Is that a cheap price or a standard price?

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    1. No idea. I don't pay real money for anything.

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