Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Calculation Question

Previously I believed that attacks were calculated first and defense was calculated second. If this occurs its actually equalizing debuffs by making them closer to their buff counterparts.

For example:

If 100,000k attack vs 100,000k defense. Attack debuff and Defense buff. Attack 20% defense 25%.

Attack hits defense for 20k, bringing it down to 80. 80k with a 25% boost is 100k. Equal.

If buffs and debuffs are solely calculated base stats, not in turns then the math looks like this.

The buff gives 25k, the debuff takes 20k. End result is 100k vs 105k.  Percent is king.

Now recently a poster has been pointing out this math. Normally the cards aren't so close in stats that I need to worry about the difference between buffs/debuffs being the deal breakers on what makes a card the best, but there are a couple instances where it occurs.

So, I decided to search for the information I needed. Unfortunately it was a complete pain in the ass and I didn't get a pure answer on it, but I did find something interesting and I'm curious if anybody can verify it.

I pulled this from the wiki, it was posted five days ago:

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Skill Stacking Test -- TylerDurden (talk) 11:48, 30 November 2012 (UTC) -- TylerDurden (talk) 11:48, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I ran a test to determine if a buff from a defender would be calculated using the deck's base value (outcome 1), or if it would be calculated using the base value with debuffs applied (outcome 2). To do this, I created a scenario with two simple cards using "all" skills. The defense card has one single defense point higher than the attack card. Both players are using non-realm cards and have no other bonuses applied.

Attacker
Card: Goblin Fighter (R)
Attack: 2866
Skill: [Rage] Medium hit to foe's DEF (all)

Defender
Card: High lancer
Defense: 2867
Skill: [Lightning Lance] Medium boost to DEF (all)

If outcome 1 is true, then the defense value should be identical and the defender will win. If outcome 2 is true, the resulting defense value should be slightly lower, and the attacker should win.
In the test, the defender won proving that the defender's buffs are not calculated using the debuffed base value.

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Now, if this information is correct, it definitely ruins any thought that a 20% debuff is equal to a 25% buff, and assures that buffs are king. If anybody can verify or refute this information I would be curious. It would really help in me creating accurate decks for best decks.

Thanks for any help people can offer on the subject.



56 comments:

  1. Sorry for being such a pain in the [insert body part].

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    1. Haha. I don't think you were really being a pain on much of it and honestly if you didn't bring it up I probably wouldn't have looked into this for months. I just wish I could find more people to confirm or refute it since I've only seen it mentioned once and it's only five days old.

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  2. I have found 1 mistake so far in my logic - I was compounding buffs. So a 10% buff = a 10% debuff. However, I have not been able to determine if a 10% debuff is base/1.1 or base*0.9. It is 'very' difficult to level a card into the range where I can test this, and I have found no answer on the net. I just assumed it was *0.9, and based my comments off that. If it proves incorrect, I apologize in advance.

    P.S. I love your blog and it has helped me understand this game immensely. Thank-you.

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  3. You from singaporea? I would like to contact you personally.

    Maybe you like to start from Email
    Removal_@hotmail.com

    I hope to get your reply.
    Best regard
    Val ( removal )

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. You can email at Rageguide@gmail.com

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  4. Hi Lucarda

    First of all I really enjoy reading your blog!

    What I've heard but never tested by myself is that the buff and debuff is calculated on the base ATK and DEF. So if you boost 10% and get a 9% debuff you would finaly boost by 1%. This means Values would be calculated at the same time. What the problem in this theory would be how the boosts/debuffs could actually stack...

    Don't really know if this is correct, as I said, it is only the stuff I've read...

    Cheers

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    1. That's what I've been hearing lately. I always thought that the attack/defense were calculated in an order. It made sense to me because otherwise debuffs are grossly inferior since they use (all) modifiers.

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  5. Lucarda, I'm willing to help out with you research. Can you tell me if it's a testrun you are looking for? Or any kind of other help?

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  6. I believe this one to be correct:

    http://ragesofbahamut.blogspot.no/2012/08/skills-and-battle-mechanics-faq-saq.html

    I've tested it and got same results as calculated.


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    2. Comment removed as that only applies when DEF doesn't proc.. Agree with your conclusion. Thanks for your informative blog! =)

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  7. I verify the math linked by Zeppern to be correct. You can calculate the exact number you will get based on your card boosts and opponent card boosts (if you know opponent's card skill levels).

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  8. Lucarda,

    Do you have the formula for calculating your atk power with boosts, order bonus, realm, and atk leader?

    I tried using the sites people have posted but they dont seem to work on my computer, I am calculating it wrong because I thought my atk should have maxed out around 170 and it is hitting for around 150.

    THANKS!!

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    1. I believe the forumula is:

      (Morale Boost+Realm Boost+Skill+Skill+Skill)(Order Boost)(Leader Boost)= Final result.

      Only leader/order boosts aren't additive.

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    2. awesome, thanks for the quick replies!

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  9. Ok, so the conclusion I've drawn is that the skills are both calculated off the base, not the effected.

    Because of that I can only conclude that the card with the higher % is the winner in all scenarios.

    Since order/leader boosts are figured on the boosted numbers it gives boosts a slight edge over debuffs.

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    1. I think there should be more to it than the debuff thing or else hit to specific realm will be pointless. ex. HR cards with big hit to god def will loose to apsara. In the end, it all depends who's getting more skill procs but if both will have equal procs then the one with higher stats win which defeats the purpose of hit to specific realm.

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    2. Hit to specific realm is pointless when it comes down to it. You have to know what realm defense people are using and it could really be man or god. It's a gamble.

      In the end I've noted time and time again, all things equal, luck plays a big role. In the end offenses will always have the advantage though because they can build the morale buff.

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    3. Yeah that's true, even in actual TCGs luck plays a big role when you draw a card. My point is why did the devs make a skill which couldn't even serve its' purpose. ex. 5 orions/ark d/etc vs 5 apsara. Orion/ark d/etc was designed with a big hit to god realm therefore it should win against apsara given with the same no. of skill procs and other conditions. But now having known that buff & debuff applies on base stats, hit to specific realm even when paired with that specific realm becomes pointless and would basically just rely to out proc the defender. I just think that cards with specific hit to realm should have an advantage over that specific realm since their skills are only useful against them which limits their skill only to that realm. Do you think that in some point of time, the devs may have changed how the buff/debuff worked or maybe the calculation for hit to specific realm is different?

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  10. this hw is going to be insane! looks like knight arthur is the top reward, 31K atk, 35% boost to man attack. ive also replaced my entire attack deck. base 92277 now. 3 clays sl 10 2 yuki, 168,597 boosted. lets take top 10 n get rich!

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    1. 31k with 35% boost is just insane. I can't even predict that card's value.

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    2. Where are you getting that information? (on prizes and details I mean?)

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    3. Knights Arthur is the card on the HW banner for Rebirth. If you can read Japanese, you can look up his info on the Japanese wiki: http://w.livedoor.jp/mnga_bahamut/d/%8e%c5%8e%b2%8e%c2%8e%b1%8e%b0%8e%bb%8e%b0%20%28%8e%da%8e%bc%8e%de%8e%aa%8e%dd%8e%c4%8e%de%29

      Absolute Boost to Man Realm Attack, 37 power, base legend (Final Form S Legend). Base card's starting attack is 5280, for reference, right now, the base card with the highest base attack is Azi Dahaka at 4880, which 8-maxes to 26060 attack. I think the above poster may be incorrect about 31k attack though, because Lucifer has the same base attack and 8-maxes to 28196 attack. http://wiki.rageofbahamut.com/Lucifer
      The wiki also says that absolute boosts are 25%, not 35%, but I obviously can't verify that.

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    4. I really hope he isn't 31k honestly. 35% boost is going to be insane enough without an attack 5k higher than it's closest rivals.

      But yeah the banner leads you to believe it's Knight Arthur.

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    5. it is lord arthur for the rewards ssr not the knight arthus base legend. but base legend arthur ur right is not 31K atk its more around 27-28K atk. and the boost i was speaking about sl 10 35% sl 1 would be 25%. sorry for the mix up.

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    6. It's the same card, they just changed him from the Japanese version (giving him a name that sounds much less dumb in English), so he'll (probably!) be 20% boost to man realm (base), and a much lower attack in an 8-max because his power's going to be nerfed from 37 to an SSR power.

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  12. Hey Lucarda, sorry to go off topic, but do you know how Honor Points are calculated/determined?

    I have noticed that if I have more ATK points I receive more Honor points. For example, lets say a player has 350 AP and their ATK deck uses 125 AP. The first time (it seems to me) they attack, so going from 350->225 they get more points than if they were not fully replenished and were attacking the same deck but with 230 AP (thus going 230->105)

    Do you know what determines how much or how little Honor Points are received from a successful attack? It seems rather random to me, other than the obvious rank and DP.

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    1. They are determined by the power of your attack deck and the % of defense the player you're attacking has left.

      Since you attack the player once, the points you gain are reduced since the player now has less defense.

      That causes an interesting effect when players have 10 defense btw. They are worth full points the entire time you attack them.

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  13. Ok, so I was wrong. Buffs are better than Debuffs. Thank-you all.

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    1. Knowing is half the battle.

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    2. Hi, I still think Debuff is better...
      Lets say you (base 100k) attack me(base 120k).
      I have no skill card and you can use either one 18% buff or one 18% debuff card. Which card you will use?
      If you use 18% buff, your atk 118k, my def 120k, you lose.
      If you use 18% debuff, your atk 100k, my def 98.4, you win.

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    3. But you're almost never going to be using an equal value debuff unless you're stacking your deck to be gimmicky and only attack one realm.

      1 realm buff > All realm debuff

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    4. Nyan's logic is sound. However, it's not very reliable as a deciding factor as it's extremely situational. For the attacker to win in this scenario, the defender must not have even the slightest buff, and all cards must be affected by the debuff. These criteria are completely out of the attacker's control.

      As Lucarda stated further down, "Realistically, they are so close that the fight won't be decided on it 99.9% of the time."

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  14. Just want to say thank you for the information. I'm a bit disappointed since I'm building a God offensive desk with debuff :(
    Also, an off-topic question: I want to build a wall buster in my second demon acc. can I just use man wall breaker cards to save cost or I use should demon wall buster card?

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    1. Crystalia Lily is only slightly worse than Sword Valkyrie after leader effects are factored in. Lily is actually better than Valk in pure stats. Debuff in GOD is really viable.
      Also, if you want to run Orion or Ancient Fairy and attack GOD or DEMON decks respectively, it would usually be better than any other option at the HR level, but you need to be wary of off-realm defenses.

      As for wall busters, the realm advantage is minimal when compared to the ability boost. Yes, the demon one would be better (and they sell for 6-8 each during non-HW events), but not by much.

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    2. IMHO, CL is better than SV.

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    3. I agree, and I like the artwork better. However, they are pretty much equal.

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    4. All things said. Go with the ones you prefer. In the end the fights won't be decided because you picked CL over SV or vice versa, but will be decided based on who gets a 3 proc.

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  15. Wouldn't debuff still be slightly better because realm and leader effects are based on buffed/debuffed stats?

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    1. No, it depends. If both you and your opponent have the full effects, then it is a wash. However, if you have it and your opponent does not, a buff is better (so get that ATT leader bonus). If your opponent has the bonus, and you do not, then the debuff is better.

      Since you can control your own bonuses, a buff is a better option. Buffs just give you more control.

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    2. Realistically, they are so close that the fight won't be decided on it 99.9% of the time.

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  16. Hey! mr ghost. just thought id let you know. everyone is required 50 hp minimum to 100 hp donation for the def deck for the upcoming holy war. we are building 4 lances sl 10 and 1 muse. smyg is planning on kicking people who dont make their contribution. dont want to lose you as a member!

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  17. While we're on the topic on calculations and there is a Holy War on the horizon I thought I'd ask this:

    HW point buffers (Principality in my case as I'm of the pro-God type) can't be stacked like Wall Busters (like Ares), so it's not worth having more than one in your deck.

    Therefore a Holy War offense deck would have my Principality in the first slot and 4 others... Now without a buffer skill in slot 1, what's my best bet for cards 2-5?

    In that case wouldn't debuff be king since it's unlikely you'll hit more than 1 skill?

    I have several cards and have been experimenting... I have a 6-3 ifrit (skill 8), a 6-max Trow Elf with skill 10, two 4-max SV's with skills 4 and 5 and a couple Ancient Fairies...

    I find my best combo is Fairy, Valkyre, Trow, Valkyrie, Fairy ... but if principality has to go in the middle, it's likely best to simply replace the Trow -- should Ifrit go in slot 2 over SV? (Bigger boost, but lower base... and slot 2 isn't guaranteed to go off), or should I forget either a go for Fairy, Lily, Princi, Lily, Fairy?

    This is my first Holy War as a competitive player and I really want to do well.

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    1. To make matters more complicated, what about the recent releases of more HW point buffers? With two different card buffs, can they stack? Chiron offers of big boost to HW points (changes to great boost on FF) and has a starting atk of 3580.

      Even if booth can proc during battle, you would be sacrificing some serious damage, even if you managed to have a third proc. Would it be worth the HW point bonus if it hurt you overall damage so you couldn't battle stronger players?

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    2. Exactly... I wonder if the best thing to do is put a big buffer in the #1 slot and a Chiron or Princi (or combo) in slots 2/3 hoping one goes off... I'm worried without a buffer DEF is king.

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    3. Hm. I never thought about whether or not the two different point cards can stack. That will be interesting to check in HW if anybody does it.

      Nate. I would go with your F, L, P, L, F set up because since you're losing the sure buff in spot one, it will be important to have very high base stats.

      As for the last comment by FBaum, even if they do stack I wouldn't. Lets say you lose 1 more match out of ever 5-10. That's a 200+ point reduction from the loss, and you can't be sure they will both proc.

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    4. The only relevant rule that is clearly stated is that, "Skills that raise Holy War Points attained can only be activated once per battle."

      Unfortunately,that doesn't clarify whether each skill can only proc once per battle, or each player can only have one boosting skill activate per battle...

      Annoying...

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  18. you should give robforums.com a try. It has the BIGGEST RoB community alive and tons of infos on topics like that. The atk/def formula has been found out in July/june already. The chance of skill proccing about 1-2 month later.

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    1. I have an account for Robforums, I stopped going there ages ago one trading was banned. Honestly the issue hadn't come up in a long time. My personal philosophy that was decided long ago was that the information on atk/def formulas didn't matter and looking into it was a waste of time. 99.9% of situations that knowledge won't lead you to winning/losing a match.

      I made this post primarily to look into a readers information on debuffs vs buffs and I find it more fun to involve my readers than to spend 20 minutes finding five examples.

      Btw, the wiki generally has the answer long before Robforums if you search the massive blocks of text.

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    2. Hi, I went to the website and couldn't find info about chance of skill proccing.
      Can you post the link? Thanks.

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    3. yeah, it is true, that finding the information, is not that easy on the forum, because it was completely mismanaged in the past (ultra old stickies etc.). But there are still a lot of interesting discussions about running events, new cards and stuff like that. the thread about skill proc: http://robforums.com/tips-and-tricks/skill-proc-rate-%28w-prelim-results%29-collecting-more-data/ The deck calculators you can find in the forum and on wiki use the atk/def formula and may come in handy, when you want to know atk/def of your deck: http://wiki.rageofbahamut.com/Rage_of_Bahamut:Community_portal#Useful_Tools I wanted to update the skill page on wiki with that information, but the wiki became really slow for me, so i stopped updating it.

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